Religion and Foreign Policy Webinar: The Pope and International Relations

FASKIANOS: Welcome to the Council on Foreign Relations Religion and Foreign Policy Webinar Series. I’m Irina Faskianos, vice president of the National Program and Outreach here at CFR. Thank you for joining us. 

As a reminder, this webinar is on the record and the audio and video will be available on CFR’s website, CFR.org, as well as on the Apple Podcasts channel, Religion and Foreign Policy. As always, CFR takes no institutional positions on matters of policy.  

We’re delighted to have Peter Casarella and Cecilia González-Andrieu here with us to discuss the geopolitical and cultural influence and leadership of the pope, as well as the role of the Catholic Church in international relations. 

Peter Casarella is a professor of theology at Duke Divinity School, where he primarily focuses on systematic theology, world religions, and Catholicism. He is currently serving a second five-year term on the International Roman Catholic-Baptist World Alliance Ecumenical Dialogue. He has published a monograph as well as 91 essays in scholarly journals on topics including Hispanic and Latino presence in the U.S. Catholic Church, intercultural thought, and medieval Christian Neoplatonism. 

Cecilia González-Andrieu is a professor of theological studies at Loyola Marymount University. She is a leading scholar of theological aesthetics, Latino theologies, women’s issues, and political theology. She also serves on the board of the Academy of Catholic Hispanic Theologians of the U.S. and as an advisor to the Discerning Deacons Project. And she was a contributor to Go Into the Streets!: The Welcoming Church of Pope Francis, which was published by Paulist Press in 2016, and authored Bridge to Wonder: Art as a Gospel of Beauty, which was published by Baylor University Press in 2012.  

So, thank you both for being with us today. I’d like to first turn to you, Peter, to give us your thoughts on the pope and the role of the church. And just noting that today is Pope Francis’s eighty-eighth birthday. So we’ve timed this well. So let’s go first to you, and then we’ll turn to Cecilia. 

CASARELLA: Exactly. Thank you so much, Irina, and the whole team at CFR, for this—giving me this opportunity to speak about the pope and international relations. Yeah, happy birthday, Pope Francis. Tanti auguri, as they say in Rome. Pope Francis was actually born—here’s a picture of him receiving a gift on his plane ride back from the recent trip two days ago to Corsica. Pope Francis was born on December 17, 1936. And this also gives me an opportunity to think a little bit about the context of the popes, at least the popes of my lifetime, the post-Vatican II popes, and the context of the popes having this kind of soft power, this kind of moral power.  

And, I mean, this is a much longer presentation, but, I mean, just thinking about the period from 1870 to the signing of the Lateran Accords in 1929—the so-called popes being prisoner of the Vatican—and how after that everything changed with the loss of temporal power. And then every Pope in the twentieth century, after Vatican II in my lifetime, has been kind of trying to find some way from—Paul VI up to Pope Francis—to use this soft power, to use this moral power. The Vatican city-state is obviously not in possession of great territory or military. But this moral power, the soft power, what does that mean?  

So I’m going to focus on that question in the few minutes I have left. And starting with this trip that that Pope Francis just took to Corsica. I was a little bit puzzled at first, why was he going to Corsica? He’s eighty-eight years old. And then two things immediately struck me about that. First—and there’s probably a lot more background to this that I’m not even aware of. But, first, just from appearances, Pope Francis passed on the invitation to join all of the world’s dignitaries at the reopening of the Notre Dame Cathedral. And he instead invites President Macron to come to the peripheries, to the island of Corsica. So that was the first thing, going to the peripheries. He’s going to the peripheries. He’s inviting Macron to go to the peripheries.  

But then when I saw that he was attending a conference on Mediterranean popular piety another light bulb went off. That’s what this pope has been about from the beginning, bringing together popular piety—in Spanish we call it religiosidad popular, with social justice. So this gives me an opportunity to just speak very briefly about the origins of Pope Francis’ ideas about global order, world order, and politics in the southern cone, in Argentina in particular. There’s many figures who influence in in this regard. And I don’t have time to go through with them all. I think the last one on the list is someone who now—who is the pope’s ghostwriter, Victor Manuel Fernandez—Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez. And now has the key theological position within the Vatican. He’s the pope’s main theological advisor.  

But the key thing that you need to know to understand Pope Francis about this school that developed basically in the period between 1968 and 1979, between the so-called Medellin meeting of the Council of Latin American Bishops Conferences and then the meeting in 1979 in Puebla, was the linking together of social justice, or the main theme of liberation theology, with popular piety. That was the light bulb that went off when I saw he was going to Corsica to attend a conference on popular piety. There are many great books—Thomas Rourke, Massimo Borghesi, Austin Ivereigh—on this theme of the so-called teologia del pueblo, or theology of the people.  

When he becomes pope in 2013, in his apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium, or Joy of the Gospel, this becomes synthesized in what are called the four Bergoglian priorities. In that central part of that text, he issues these four invitations that lead to a new understanding of the common good or social justice. The first is the hardest one to grasp. It’s time is greater than space. He’s thinking here just about the priority of finding processes to bring new realities. He’s thinking about the colonial heritage of Latin America, the tendency from the colonial period to dominate and take over space and to replace that with new processes for social dialogue.  

So against the colonial domination of inhabited land and in favor of a spiritual freedom for peoples to exist together. Time is greater than space. I mean, all of his work on ecological theology, Laudato Si’ and ecological conversion is also about the same principle. Unity prevails over conflict. This is the point that dialogue requires effort and patience. Realities are more important than ideas. There’s nothing anti-intellectual about this. His main point here is that the principles taken from the Latin American church of see, judge, and act have to be recovered in a new way. So when the pope talks about arm dealers are fueling the global wars, that’s what he’s talking about there.  

And then the one that I want to go into in a little more detail, the whole is greater than its parts. It’s in that section that he introduces his favorite metaphor. If you’ve never heard this before, it sounds a little bit weird. He’ll come into a room and he’ll bang on the table and say, now we have to talk about the polyhedron. What is that about? The polyhedron, for the pope, is the opposite of the sphere. Spheres are a metaphor for homogenization, where all things come together and all the differences are washed out. So with my two soccer balls here that represent Joy of the Gospel section 236, you’re supposed to be thinking about the relationship between the unity and diversity that you find in a polyhedron, and then the homogenization, the washing out of difference, that you have in a sphere, where all the points on the surface are equidistant from the central. He uses that metaphor over and over and again. To maintain diversity, to maintain cultural diversity, religious diversity, diversity in the midst of conflict, but also to have some kind of order and peace.  

A couple more images. This is from the pre-pontifical period, the so-called blessing at Luna Park. The Argentine press, some of the Catholic press, said the pope had stopped being Catholic because he received a blessing from an evangelical pastor in the stadium, the soccer stadium, at Luna Park. Look what happens when he’s elected pope in Rome. He asked the people for the exact same blessing. He asked the people to bless him and to say the creed of the church with them. So this idea of being with the people, being blessed by the people, goes to the heart of the theology the people that is, I think, the signature move that we’ve had in the entire pontificate of Pope Francis.  

Now, to get a little bit more to the religious dimension of his ideas about—oh, my time is up. So just two more points. One is that his dialogue with Rabbi Skorka and then the meeting in Abu Dhabi in 2019 I think are the keys to understanding his bringing religion. And then in Fratelli Tutti, which comes after Abu Dhabi, he talks about how religions—he’s talking here about the Abrahamic religions—but how all religions have to work together for social friendship, for social fraternity. And that’s his vision of dialogue. It’s one that’s still open ended. It has this ignition or this spiritual view of walking together, being together. But I think that’s what he’s bringing to the table. And I’ll just stop there and leave it open for questions. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you so much. And, Cecilia, over to you. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Thank you, Peter. And thank you, Irina. I need to start by just saying: felicidades al Papa Francisco de Loyola, Marymount University, desde Los Angeles. Very excited for his eighty-eighth birthday. 

And I want to set the stage for the conversation. You know, most of us are familiar with images of St Peter’s Square at the Vatican. It’s the classic Roman architecture, the two enormous circling colonnades, and room for almost half a million people. And in 2019 just something happened, and a new monument was added. And rather than saints or biblical figures, the monument, which is life-size, is a really stunningly realistic bronze depiction of a boat full of migrants and refugees from multiple places and multiple time periods. And somewhere near the center of it there is, arising out of the group, a pair of angel wings toward the sky. And it’s a reference to the letter to the Hebrews, “Let mutual love continue. Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained angels.”  

Now, the appearance of a brand-new monument on the geographical center of the Catholic Church, after 400 years of nothing new at the plaza, tells us much about Pope Francis. Now that the monument is an unapologetic and highly political appeal to advocate for the most vulnerable of the world tells us even more about him. And many are going to see the statue and be very moved by it, as I was. But others will see it as a hindrance to the plaza. And so it is with Pope Francis. Many people around the world see him as the spiritual leader who has been enthusiastically embraced by people of many different faiths, or of no faith. Others, especially those who benefit from privilege and from power—some of them Catholic—see him as a disruptive force and openly oppose him. 

And the global embrace by the poor, the young, and those on the peripheries, regardless of their religious identity, and the constant opposition by the comfortable and the powerful tells me Papa Francisco is doing something right. Jesus had a similar effect on people. And Pope Francis is very clear that getting us back to the priorities set forward by Jesus and the early church is at the very heart of his vision. Now, when he was elected in 2013, many of us were electrified. He was the first Latin American pope ever, and also a Jesuit. And to understand how he sees the Catholic Church’s involvement in international issues, we really need to start there. Pope Francis understands the Catholic Church to be an agent of transformation for the good of, as he calls it in his encyclical on the environment, nuestro hogar común, the appeal to seeing this planet as our shared home puts us all on notice about our shared responsibilities.  

Now, let me try to tease out how this pope has effectively transformed the Catholic Church in relation to the world, to the great rejoicing of many and to the dismay of a few. First, the idea of the globe as ours, as shared, and as home, puts nothing that happens in that planetary home outside the concerns of the Catholic community. He wants a church that is engaged with the world’s pain, a church that calls out suffering wherever it happens, intervenes with generosity when there is hunger, that cares for the sick, the imprisoned, the immigrant, the stranger, and that advocates for the young and for the elderly. And so, as he has taught us, he says, help first and ask questions later. 

Second, this active engagement with a suffering planet, where he asks us to hear the joint call of the Earth and the call of the poor, is a requirement of Catholic faith to act globally as people who defend the most vulnerable. Means to do exactly what Jesus told us to do, to be like him, to be healers, teachers, givers, and so to see God everywhere in all things—a very Jesuit thing. So global Catholicism today, as led by Pope Francis, is about getting back to the basics. That we cannot claim to love God if we’re not willing to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  

Now, third, Pope Francis knows that long-lasting transformation only happens when we change systems and structures. As Peter pointed out, he’s a Latin American theologian. And so he wants us to look at underlying causes. The Catholic Church today has to go much beyond acts of charity to act for social justice, right, where the conditions that cause the suffering are seen, questioned, and then changed. So Papa Francisco has really set a global agenda that is challenging. And it should be challenging. (Laughs.) And if we can imagine that he’s the spiritual leader of over a billion people, if we were all listening and acting, we could really do a heck of a lot to help this planet, that’s in such urgent need of love. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you both. This is a great way to—for the discussion. So we’re going to turn to all of you for your questions and comments. 

(Gives queuing instructions.) 

So the first written question comes from Michael Strmiska, who’s a professor of world history at Orange County Community College in New York: Question for either of you is, how high a probability do you see of the next pope being more conservative than Pope Francis, and represent a turning away from his more liberal stances on homosexuality and concern for the environment? Could we see a Pope Opus Dei or a Pope Trump? 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: OK, well, I’ll take that for a minute, and then Peter can. (Laughs.) I think it’s kind of counterproductive to call Pope Francis liberal or conservative because this is about the gospel for him. And those binary kind of stances that we hear around the world, but especially in the United States, I don’t think help us, right? So my question would be, you know, are we likely to see someone for whom the gospel is at the center of everything? And from where these attitudes of nonjudgment, and of inclusivity, and of love, and of healing come? And I think the likelihood is high. Pope Francis has appointed, at this point, about 80 percent of the cardinals that would be electing at the next conclave. And I just think—and I’m hoping, right—that the beauty of what we have been doing together during the synod process, this global meeting of the church, is permeating everyone so that the beauty is what’s going to guide us to this attitude of loving and caring for each other, which I think is at the heart of who he is. 

FASKIANOS: Peter.  

CASARELLA: I don’t have too much to add to that. I think Cecilia is spot on. The idea that you could have a pope who would divert from the gospel message of offering hospitality to migrants, or being concerned in terms of processes and structures about not just direct material aid to the poor but a new and better life for the poor, is unthinkable. I mean, these are non-negotiables in the gospel of Christ and in Catholic social teaching. I mean, there’s sometimes a search for an equilibrium, so that point is well taken. But the other thing that I would add is that the first encyclical of Pope Francis was called Lumen Fidei, the so-called encyclical of four hands, in which Pope Francis wrote about four words and the rest was written by his predecessor, Pope Benedict. So there’s always going to be some stability, even if there’s change.  

FASKIANOS: Fantastic. I’m going to take the spoken question from Egon Cholakian. If you could share your affiliation, that would be great. There we go. 

Q: Good afternoon, everybody. This is Egon Cholakian. I modestly say I’m affiliated both with the U.S. Congress and the White House, formerly with Harvard, if that matters. 

Thank you very much. Very much appreciate your delivery today. It’s very important to myself. I have business with the Vatican at least twice a year. I’ve had the privilege of spending a bit of time with Pope Francis. A nice gentleman. I will add this, that while he as an individual has been nothing less than obliging, everything nice to say about the gentleman. Nothing bad whatsoever. Although the Vatican has not really changed, I don’t sense any difference when I go there today versus five, six, ten, fifteen years back, I deal heavily with the anti-cult movement in Eastern, Central, and Western Europe, which is spearheaded by FECRIS out of Paris, France. And with all those activities taking place in Italy, France, and all of Western, Central, and Eastern Europe, I’ve not come across any activity coming out of—emanating out of the Vatican which says, no, this is no good. This is not—this is not Christianity being practiced.  

And I’m stunned by that. I’ve refrained on multiple occasions about ever bringing the matter up directly. And I usually get, like, five, ten minutes with the pope, maximum. And I guess I could bring up a few issues when I have those few moments. I’ve never had the courage, because I don’t want to put the gentleman on the spot. I’m not sure if he’s totally aware of what’s going on. But, boy, it’s in his backyard. And that just catches my attention. Every time I leave the Vatican I think, what are they doing? Can you give any input or any statement on this matter? 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Well, Egon, I just came from a meeting with Pope Francis this last month about—especially about—with the Amazonian women leaders and with women leaders in Canada and in Latin America. And it was a very private meeting. And I was struck by the, kind of, to me, clash of times that you feel when you are there. And I think that that is—that is right. That’s a burden that Pope Francis is carrying. That we are this enormously ancient structure with all of these protocols and all of this very complicated ways to deal with the world. So I think that that causes a slowness, and an amount of red tape, and all of that, that is really—I mean, going to the Vatican to meet with Pope Francis is pretty daunting. 

On the other hand—and this was part of the conversation we had with him—he pointed out, you know, he’s appointed twenty-three women to major positions within the Vatican structure. And what he told us was, I see things changing. And this gets to my point about structures, right? That by putting people into his teams, by creating so many cardinals from the developing world, by bringing women into positions of authority, the structures themselves, hopefully, will start becoming more responsive and dynamic to our present world.  

And I think it is a very clear tension within the Roman Catholic Church of how do we step out? And, you know, he talked about going out into the streets and the peripheries. How do we do that? How do we listen to concerns like what you’re bringing up in a way that that’s quick and dynamic and can answer? So my only advice to you would be find some people within the structure that you can have conversations with about what’s going on, and see if they can move things along. 

CASARELLA: Yeah, again, in agreement. I mean, ecclesia semper reformanda. The church is always reforming itself. And Pope Francis has, I think, successfully taken the lead on some of these internal reforms. And I’m glad Cecilia talked about her meeting with the Discerning Deacons recently in Rome. 

On cults, I don’t know the situation about Vatican vis-à-vis cults in Eastern Europe. I can say a word about some of the processes he’s been trying to clean up with the religious orders and the ecclesial movements. He’s been very strong on maintaining kind of spiritual direction from outside of the order, the so called internal reform and respecting privacy. So he’s very anti-cult within Catholicism. But the question about Eastern Europe, I don’t have any specific information on that.  

FASKIANOS: Thank you both. We’re waiting for questions to queue up, so I’ll take the next one. What do you think are the main challenges the Vatican faces in navigating international relations, especially as we see so many conflicts around the world and a rapidly shifting geopolitical landscape? 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Well, again, you know, I think—it was so clear to me when I was in Rome last month that the extraordinary diversity of the church that Peter alluded to, it is difficult to navigate for the pope. I mean, you know, one of the most ancient titles is Pontifex. You know, the bridge builder, the bridge maker. So I think it is really challenging to have people—even just think about the United States, right—to have Nancy Pelosi and, you know, people in the Supreme Court, you know, Amy Coney Barrett, both be Catholics, right? People who have such really divergent views just thinking about the United States.  

So when we think about the rest of the world, right, on questions, you know, of homosexuality, and questions of women, and clearly on questions of war and peace, and the environment, right, there’s all of these divergent views within the Catholic Church itself. So that creates for him a really gigantic challenge of how to bring us to the table to talk with each other, which is why he has been involved, has had us all involved in, for the last three years. And what this synodal process—you know, this walking together process that he’s had us on, what it has, you know, allowed us to see is precisely how hard it is to have a global community of people that are so extraordinarily different agree on anything.  

And so I think that poses a challenge for him. But then, as Peter alluded, right, we have the gospel. And so there’s things that are non-negotiable and they’re never going to be negotiable. And I think those are the ones where he has taken very clear and upfront stances. You know, on the environment, on immigrants, on the poor. And that those are the places where we can do a lot of work. 

CASARELLA: Yeah. These are all important. He’s opposed to the use of nuclear arms. I mean, all of these individual items could be detailed and discussed at great length. I think what I see is the overarching challenge—and, as I said before, I think each of the popes in my lifetime, from Paul VI up Francis, have been trying to find a new way to use this soft moral power, and to do that in conjunction with other world leaders. So by highlighting the agreement in Abu Dhabi in 2019 with the Grand Imam of al-Azhar Ahmed el-Tayeb, I was trying to point that, at least within an Abrahamic framework, there’s some—at the one hand, you’re saying that a certain resistance to a pure relativism, to a pure secularism, and keeping transcendent values, openness to the absolute in the mix, as you’re also defending religious liberty. 

But at the same time saying, we have to get real. We have to end wars. We have to be patient in dialogue. We have to work together for this human fraternity. There’s not a particular recipe that brings all of those things together. And the tension between remaining open to dialogue, in the same time emphasizing transcendence and the problems with the completely relativistic world where everything is OK, that’s not easy to negotiate. But that’s the fundamental problem, as I see it. 

FASKIANOS: Fantastic. 

Let’s go next to Seemi Ahmed. 

Q: Hi, Irina. I just—I had a comment, more than a question.  

FASKIANOS: OK, and if you can give us your affiliation. It’s great to see you. 

Q: Oh, I’m sorry. I am a chaplain. I’m a health-care chaplain with the Northwell Health System.  

I want to say, this has been very, very educational for me, as I’m a Muslim. Both the speakers are very eloquent. And I would like to thank them. And I would like to thank CFR for having this session, because it’s—for me personally, it’s been very, very educational, regarding Catholicism, and the pope, and everything else. Thank you.  

FASKIANOS: Thank you. 

I’m going to go next to a written question from Mary Hunt, codirector Women’s Alliance for Theology, Ethics, and Ritual: Pope Francis is assumed to be progressive on social issues, except when they have to do with women—whether on birth control, abortion, ordination of women to the diaconate and the priesthood, there is little change in teachings or structures related to women during this pontificate. A few women have been added in administrative positions, and some participated in the recent synod. But, since no Catholic women are ordained no Catholic women have jurisdiction or decision making at this point. What message does this give world leaders about the Vatican’s moral compass? 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Well, as Peter mentioned, I was at—and thank you, Mary, for the question, even though it’s a very difficult one. And I was there with women leaders from the Amazon, two Franciscan sisters from the Amazonian Ecclesial Conference, and then from Discerning Deacons in the United States, and women leaders from indigenous communities in Canada. And our conversation with the pope was about the fact that women are doing really extraordinarily important work around the world, and that they are doing so because they have a bishop who has seen what they do, and decided, yeah, I need to give you some kind of authority to do this, right? But we cannot be depending on that. We cannot be depending on there being single bishops in single places who see a need and then act.  

And so I think, for me, the Discerning Deacons, the desire to return the diaconate of women—because it was part of the of the ancient church, for the first thousand years, probably. To return us to that practice would be a really great step. So what I feel from Pope Francis, he is eighty-eight years old, and he’s pretty much very similar to my own dad. And in that sense there’s great appreciation, and as he talks about all the time, that women—he told us, women run the world—and a great support for that. But he is a man of his time. And I think it’s going to take someone from a later time who has been more involved with women in leadership to be—to take the next step.  

I do note that the conversation on the diaconate has not been closed. We were all very afraid that that was going to be the case. It has not. It will continue open, and it will continue to be talked about. And I just think he does trust the sense of the faithful, the sense of the church. And I think that the more that we speak about this, the more that we act in ways that show that Catholic women are doing extraordinary work around the world, the more that sense of the faithful will become apparent to him, and to the rest of our faithful, who have to then embrace women in equal leadership. And I think that’s the only way we’re going to get there. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you. I’m going to go next to Anita Chang. 

Q: Hello. Can you hear me?  

FASKIANOS: Yes. If you could give us your affiliation?  

Q: Yes. My affiliation is with ChinaAid. It’s an organization working on religious freedom in China. 

As you probably have heard, Bishop Peter Shao—S-H-A-O—Peter Shao, he was appointed by the Vatican in 2011 and took over as the bishop in China in 2016. However, earlier this year, 2024 January, he was arrested by the Chinese officials. And the very absurd phenomenon in China is that there is the above-ground official bishop that is associated with the government of China versus the underground bishop that operates on a completely different system. And that was formerly more linked with the Vatican recognition. So that is what the religious freedom realm of China is right now. I’m wondering what your comments or what your insights could be, why that is the case. And is there a challenge to why the Vatican and the pope is unable to maybe step up a little bit on a more fierce stance on what’s going on with the many Catholic believers and the bishops in China? Thank you.  

CASARELLA: This is a very important question. I’m going to give an academic answer, which is that I don’t know the answer to it. And in fact, Nancy Pelosi just went on record just a few days ago criticizing Pope Francis and speaking up in favor of Cardinal Zen, who’s also a critic of Pope Francis on the China policy. When I was in charge of the Center for World Catholicism we did one event on China. It was by invitation only, because we didn’t—the people who wanted to speak freely didn’t want word getting back to China. When I first found out and met people who had been in the church in China in 2000, I was told that there was infiltration on both sides.  

The patriotic church was infiltrated by priests that were loyal to Rome and vice-versa. Even if I had the languages, Mandarin and Cantonese, I don’t know that I could figure out the situation. And, of course, the agreement that the Vatican signed is not public. I have had dinner with Cardinal Zen. I have a lot of respect for his critique. It’s a very complicated situation. I wish I could understand it better myself, but the information that is publicly available is limited. And that’s basically all I can say. But you’re raising very important concerns and questions. 

FASKIANOS: OK. 

We’ll go to the next question from Erik Owens, who is at Boston College: How would you evaluate the Vatican’s efforts to reduce violence in the Middle East, vis-à-vis their efforts in Ukraine-Russia? What does success look like for the Vatican foreign policy in these areas? 

CASARELLA: I’ll say a little bit about Middle East. I think that the symbolic gesture that I would bring to the fore is that Cardinal Pizzaballa, the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem, who speaks with and for the Vatican in that context, had offered to give himself up to get hostages returned. So I mean, not only trying to speak for peace and reconciliation.  

Now, I know that, like, for example, the child in a manger in St. Peter’s square with the kufiyah on has offended some people in Israel. The pope speaking about a genocide of people in Gaza has offended certain people in Israel. But he wants people to be engaged. He wants to bring peace in the Middle East. And I think the locutions of Cardinal Pizzaballa, if you read them carefully, the Vatican has a place in Jerusalem, it has a place in the Middle East over centuries. This is not a new effort or a quick, easy fix. And they want to keep that dialogue going to protect Christians in the Middle East, and not just Catholics, but also to bring about some reconciliation in this intractable conflict.  

I don’t know, did you want to speak to Ukraine or Russia, Cecilia?  

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Well, I know that war weighs heavily on Pope Francis, in ways that break his heart. And I think, if anything, all of his efforts are to keep channels of communication open as much as he can. You know, he—people have questioned, you know, why he hasn’t denounced Russia more strongly, even though he’s always speaking about Ukraine and bringing peace. But it is because he wants to keep channels of communication open so that he can step in as a mediator and as a calming voice. So it’s—again, it’s a very difficult space to be. And, you know, being with him, I just could not imagine that kind of burden on any one human being. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you. 

I’m going to take the next question from Ani Zonneveld. 

Q: Hi. Good morning, afternoon. Ani Zonneveld, founder and president of Muslims for Progressive Values.  

Thank you for hosting this special event. I really appreciate it. As a Muslim, I’ve always loved this particular pope. I’ve been following him. And I really appreciate his spirit—his spirituality. The leadership has taken on so many issues, including that of LGBT rights, and also on his position in speaking up for Palestinian rights and calling it a genocide. I’m just wondering if there’s any insight here. Has he spoken to Biden? Because as a Catholic himself, I’m just wondering, from a spiritual leader position, if he could have any influence on Biden in his arming of such a genocide, and if there’s any light at the end of this tunnel? Thank you. 

CASARELLA: Well, there have been conversations. I’m not privy to them. But, I mean, through the nuncio, I mean, messages could be going on as we speak. I don’t know about that. But the—so, I mean, I have the same wish that you expressed, Ani. And I don’t know that more can be done in the closing days of the Biden administration. But I would hope for that. But the fact of the matter is that the pope will meet with every U.S. president. The pope met with President Trump and his wife and the Vatican. And even if you go to the more complicated—from his perspective, more complicated incidents of Argentine president, some of whom who denounced him and used really foul language in talking about him when they ran for president, he met with them too. So that’s kind of a mark of his pontificate, is being willing to meet with a lot of different people from different perspectives. 

FASKIANOS: Cecilia. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, he—again, you know, this idea of trying to bridge and to be somebody that can connect people, even when it is—and people are not to his liking, but that needs to be done. I do wish, you know, for him to have that conversation with President Biden. I know that he keeps a really close eye on what’s going on in the United States. And when I met with him, he actually asked me some questions, because it was right before the election—very precise questions. And he’s paying attention to everything. I mean, I just read that he’s watching what’s going on in Syria with great care. So he has to keep attention in many, many places. But I do—I do wish, you know, that that he could make a phone call—(laughs)—to the White House and have a conversation with the pope—with the president, yes. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you. 

I’ll take the next written question from Tom Reese of Religion News Service: The Holy See has nunciatures, embassies, around the world, and a representative at the U.N. Do you see them as a force for peace and justice in the world, or do they just protect the interests of the church? 

CASARELLA: Well, I think it’s—well, thank you for the question, Father Reese. You’re actually an authority on this matter yourself. But I think it’s clear that both at the United Nations, where the pope spoke in 2015 and spoke about justice, that this soft power that I’ve been talking about is for the sake of the common good. It’s for the sake of, as Cecilia was saying, making the earth our common home. I mean, everyone has a right to the land. That’s not just for Catholics, or even just for Christians. So I mean, the very fact that the Vatican is involved, through its nuncios in the world and through these private channels, it’s all oriented towards the common good.  

And what I think Pope Francis brings to the table, and you see this when you study carefully both Evangelii Gaudium, Joy of the Gospel and Fratelli Tutti, is this interest in social dialogue and interest in entering into conflict situations, not in a Pollyannish way, not in a utopian way, in a way that’s critical of ideologies, but also trying to listen to people on both sides. He’s a pope of dialogue. And that’s heartbreaking. That’s heart wrenching. But he’s trying to make that the foreign policy of the Holy See, if you will. So thank you for the question. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Yes. Thank you, Father Reese.  

And my thoughts are that as much as these positions at the U.N. and in different, you know, nunciaturas around the world are so visible. The nunciatura sent a letter to my undergraduate students because they sent notes to the pope with me. And I think he’s got also that focus, right, that the young of our church and of the world, not just Catholics—the young are the ones that are going to change things. And so I think he’s very invested in promoting them as critical thinkers, as thoughtful people, as people that share the planet, that care about it.  

And so that we have both things going on, right? We’ve got people up here that are talking at the, you know, levels of governments and policies, but then we have this, you know, beautiful garden down here that’s just growing and growing, and that it will become a force to change the things up here. Again, you know, as a Latin American theologian, that’s the way that he thinks. And I do—I do really love, right, his interest in young people. Sometimes the structures are very staid, but when young people go out into the streets things begin to happen. 

FASKIANOS: Fantastic. 

I’m going next to Bill O’Keefe, who is vice president of government relations and advocacy to Catholic Relief Services: The church is invested in the global multilateral system that, while flawed, has kept a certain order and relative peace. That system appears to be breaking down, and the main countries are no longer feeling bound by it, and regional players are looking to stake their own claims and claim their agency. How does the pope see reforming and reimagining the multilateral system at this time, that seems very vulnerable? 

CASARELLA: Well, I think on the one hand what was just said about the nuncio tours and working, you know, on the micro level, especially in his own native Latin America, that’s where it starts. But already in Pope Benedict, his predecessor, there had been the kind of lifting up of this question of the right to protect and beginning to think about global order in that way. Kind of trying to get beyond the Treaty of Westphalia into a kind of new understanding of the common good and global order. And some people were very nervous that a pope had spoken about that.  

But I think what Pope Francis has done is taken that principle and then brought it together, particularly in the Joy of the Gospel, with these four principles about unity, about polyhedric thinking, but all oriented towards dialogue. And dialogue is looking at differences, looking at tensions in different places. So there’s not one uniform—or, as he would call it, you know, spherical approach that fits everywhere. All politics is local, as Tip O’Neill said. That’s a very Catholic way of thinking. But this new enhancement of spiritual discernment for the sake of the common good, working together with Muslims and Jews and with all people of good will, that’s what Pope Francis is trying to highlight. And hopefully that can help people working in these local situations. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Yeah, and I— 

FASKIANOS: Yes, go ahead.  

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Well, no, and I think, you know, Laudato Si’ and his work on the environment is an example of that, right? That you have this vision that then takes root in particular communities, in particular places in the Amazon, in different places. So I think, again, it’s this idea that we have some priorities. The priorities are set by the gospel. And then we need to make them happen in our local spaces. 

FASKIANOS: Our next question from Charles Strohmer, of the Wisdom Project: Could either of you give a couple of examples of the pope’s diplomatic efforts with soft and moral power having substantial changes in a national or global situation? 

CASARELLA: Substantial? I don’t know what counts as substantial, because everything is done in incremental way. But I would just go back to the speech you gave to the U.S. Congress in 2015. You know, the Republicans clapped for half of it and the Democrats clapped for the other half of it. But there was—it was a great success. And not just because of the policy issues, some which we’ve already detailed in our presentations, but because he listed up kind of figures—Abraham Lincoln, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King, and Thomas Merton—coming from American soil that could be used to bring people together around world peace or about service to the poor. And I thought that was fascinating, that he was drawing from our own culture, from our own roots, as it were, to bring his own accents about dialogue and spiritual vision. And that all the—I mean, it seems like such a long time ago, 2015, but all members of Congress thought it was great he was there. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Yeah. And I do think his influence on environmental justice has been enormous. You know, I think a lot of people credit him with having a great hand in having the Paris Agreement really go forward. And so that is, I think, one thing that we can point to. But there’s no denying that our world is not where we thought it would be, and where he was hoping it would be. And that’s a question that right now I think it’s pulling at his heart, and at all our hearts, as to why has his vision not—you know, what, at the beginning of his papacy we called the Francis effect, why hasn’t it taken better root? And I think, you know, as I alluded to, there’s great economic powers that are very much invested in that not changing. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you. 

The next question from Satpal Singh, founding trustee of the Sikh Council for Interfaith Relations: Given so many difficult and complex conflicts going on the world, what would you see as a potential and possibilities of the pope and leaders from other major faiths getting together to coordinate in a cohesive way to enhance peace and harmony at the global level and to ensure social justice for all? 

CASARELLA: Well, that’s the hope. But how do you articulate it so that it’s not pie in the sky, so it’s not utopian? Now, I know that the holy father has said that he will go to Turkey in the coming year. Some of you may know that the cause for that is not a social agreement. It’s the seventeen-hundredth anniversary of the decree of the Council of Nicaea, which—and Nicaea is right outside of then-Constantinople, today Istanbul. But that will be a moment not just to recall what happened, and that has to do with the identity of Jesus Christ in terms of its dogmatic content. But that will be not just a spiritual or doctrinal moment, but that will be a moment together calling for—hopefully for a more democratic Turkey, for a more—better unity with Muslims and people around the world. So that will be a moment, if he can make that trip because I am worried about his health, for the kind of bringing people together that you’re talking about, which is his vision, I think. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Yes. And I think, again, by bringing the world together of Catholics, per se, you know, during the synod, I think he was trying to plant the seed for all of us to be doing that work. You know, when I was in Rome, I mean, one of the people I talked with was a Lebanese Catholic who, at that moment Lebanon was being bombed. And to have that conversation between us there was transforming, right? It was powerful. And so I think that it’s both/and, that doing these trips and these intentional moments where he can highlight the plight of particular people—I mean, he begins in his book, Let Us Dream, talking about Myanmar. He likes for us to open ourselves up and to look at the world and to try to help there. But also, again, to get Catholics, ourselves, to do the hard work. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you. 

Next question from Yuri Mantilla, professor of law at Liberty University: How is the pope addressing the increasing antisemitism around the world and the efforts to deny the existence of the state of Israel? 

CASARELLA: I think that that’s something that the church has been involved in, particularly since the Second Vatican Council, in a very concerted way. And I think that the efforts that are going on to work with many different groups are still ongoing within the Vatican, within the Pontifical Council for Promotion of Christian Unity, where the Jewish-Christian dialogue continues. So I don’t think that that’s something that changes from day to day. I think since the Second Vatican Council—I mean, I tried to talk about that in terms of the relationship to Skorka. It’s just one person who’s now in Philly, but I think that that’s moving forward. And I don’t see that changing anytime soon. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: Right, yeah. I mean his relationship with Abraham Skorka, which goes back decades, tells us, right, that he understands and sees, you know, the unity of, you know, Christians and Jews and Muslims as key to who we are, and as Abrahamic faiths. And so I think he continues that work. And I don’t think there’s any indication that that’s not up at the top of his priorities. 

FASKIANOS: Thank you. 

And the final question goes to—comes from Andrew Salzman, associate professor at Benedictine College: In speaking to clergy from Ghana, the Catholic Church has played an important part in preventing violence through the promotion of interreligious dialogue at the local levels, through visits of Catholics and Muslims to each other’s schools or congregations. It seems to me that the Catholic Church, with a very developed international theory of interreligious dialogue, is playing a role which no secular organization could play. In your view, what are other global challenges in which the soft power the Catholic Church is particularly or even uniquely able to contribute? 

CASARELLA: No, that’s a really good point. And that’s a good point to end on. I mean, if we were to go into the theological issues in more depth, we’d go back to nostra aetate Vatican II. And I think over and again certain fundamentalists—the Catholic Church found a position there where Christ is at the center, but then moving outward in these concentric circles there’s always—going to those who don’t have any belief whatsoever, those who don’t believe in God or have no use for religion whatsoever—there’s always a possibility for dialogue. There’s always a possibility for keeping things open.  

In the context of Ghana and other countries in Africa, where there’s a slightly different understanding of the relationship between church and state. I talked with some of my Pentecostal students from Ghana about this. The Catholic Church is a witness to both social justice and keeping these dialogues open. And so for me, teaching at a secular university and teaching in a historically Protestant divinity school, these teachings from nostra aetate, the teachings of the Catholic Church about interreligious dialogues, are gifts that need to be shared. 

GONZÁLEZ-ANDRIEU: And I do think one of the soft powers of the Catholic Church are in education, in educating children and people on the peripheries all over the world, and in making that a priority. And also in educating our future leaders. And I think that that’s a place where we, again, can put the seeds in of a changed world. 

FASKIANOS: Wonderful. 

Well, with that we’ve come to the end of our time. And I venture to say that we have benefited from the education of both of you for this wonderful hour. So thank you very much. Your students are fortunate to have you as their professors. So thank you to Peter Casarella and Cecilia González-Andrieu, again, for being with us, for your analysis, and your comments, and to all of you for your questions and comments. We encourage you to follow CFR’s Religion and Foreign Policy Program at @CFR_religion, on what was formerly known as—or, is now known as X, and to write us at [email protected] with suggestions or questions. Thank you all, again, for being with us. We appreciate it. And we wish you happy holidays.  

CASARELLA: Thank you, Irina. It was a pleasure.